Bookpleasures.com welcomes as our guest Gail Merrifield Papp author of  Public/Private: My Life with Joe Papp at the Public Theater.

Hailing from vibrant San Francisco, Gail's life is intricately woven with the threads of creativity.

In 1965, her path intersected with Joseph Papp’s renowned New York Shakespeare Festival, setting the stage for transformation.

As Director of New Works Development at The Public Theater, Gail's role was pivotal—spotting emerging playwrights, nurturing their talent, and curating unforgettable productions.

Her legacy shines through timeless masterpieces. Notably, her collaboration birthed The Normal Heart, Larry Kramer’s Tony Award-winning play addressing the AIDS crisis. 

Gail's commitment to using arts for change earned her the Human Rights Campaign Arts and Communication Award.

Gail's creative prowess extended to musicals like The Mystery of Edwin Drood, a Tony Award-winning Best Musical, showcasing her artistic finesse.

Beyond the stage, Gail's journey entwined with her personal life. Her marriage to Joseph Papp in 1976 marked a partnership that infused life into theater, leaving an indelible mark.

Join us as we sit with Gail Merrifield  Papp to explore her narrative, gain insights into her creative process, and uncover lessons from a lifetime dedicated to nurturing artistic voices and shaping theater history.

Norm: Good day Gail and thanks for taking part in our interview.

Can you tell us about the inspiration behind writing Public/Private: My Life with Joe Papp at the Public Theater and what motivated you to share your experiences?

Gail:  Thank you so much for inviting me! What inspired me to write a memoir about my life with Joe Papp at The Public Theater was, first, because I missed him.

I also didn't want what he'd achieved to be forgotten because I knew that history is easily forgotten unless someone keeps it alive meaningfully.

However, I didn't start right away because after Joe was gone; I was asked to be the Research Collaborator on three projects.

Two were books: a biography of Joe and an oral history of the Public Theater, both of which were subsequently published. The third project was a documentary film about Joe and the Public Theater, which was subsequently shown on PBS.

As a Research Collaborator for the creators of these projects, I had to write many detailed background memos about the plays, people, and politics of the Public Theater's first 25 years.

That process re-energized the memory of my experiences in the theater and motivated me to start my project, which was to write the first personal memoir about him.

Norm: The Public Theater has a rich history of staging diverse productions. How did Joe Papp's ambition for a democratic theater influence the institution's artistic direction, and how did it reflect the city's population?

Gail: Joe's ambition for a democratic theater began with his desire to bring free productions of Shakespeare's plays to parks in New York City's five boroughs.

He compared it to books being free at the city's public libraries. He remembered going to parks in his youth where he could hear free band concerts in Brooklyn and borrow books at the library.

When he became involved in theater, it was important to him that free access for an audience had to mean a free opportunity for those doing the play they saw.

He eliminated the barriers to being cast in Shakespeare's plays that Black and ethnic actors had faced. Talent became the sole criteria.

This was the bedrock on which he founded his first theater and it remains at the core of the Public Theater's artistic DNA today.

Norm: Could you share some of the lesser-known challenges and battles that Joe Papp faced in his journey to establish and sustain The Public Theater as a transformative cultural institution?

Gail: In 1965 when I first started to work in Central Park at Joe's New York Shakespeare Festival, there were eleven newspapers in New York City that reviewed plays, and the opinions of their drama critics had always been crucially important in attracting theatergoers that didn't apply to the followers of dance and opera. 

However, by 1967, after a series of newspaper strikes, there were only three of the eleven newspapers left, and the NY Times, which no longer had any competition, was the only one mattered. 

Its reviewers back then weren't comfortable with the new movements in theater and the plays that Joe began to produce, and their negativity set off a battle of words between Joe the critics that went on for over two decades.

Another challenge was the anti-Black, anti-gay, anti-female, and antisemitic prejudice some critics displayed in their reviews. For instance, in his review of a Public Theater play he didn't like by a woman playwright, a reviewer said that instead of writing it, she should have "stayed home."

Another NYC critic couldn't wrap his mind around the possibility of a mixed Black-white family in the late 1980s. 

The right wing push against the National Endowment for the Arts almost sabotaged the funding of the Public Theater's International Latino Festival. 

These battles and challenges shifted with the times, but were always lurking in the wings.

Norm: Public/Private" covers the creation and growth of The Public Theater alongside your personal partnership with Joe Papp. How did your collaboration and personal relationship contribute to the institution's success and innovative productions?

Gail:  In my job as Director of New Works Development, I was in charge of a Play Department staff of talented directors, dramaturgs, music consultants, and readers.

However, in theatrical organizations, the Play Department can easily become a kind of secondary function, overshadowed by other departments that deal with the more urgent matters of finance and management. 

Although the structure of the Public Theater was like other theatrical organizations, it was distinctly and uniquely Joe's creation and because of that, I felt the Play Department staff needed to have a strong relationship with him and never be in that secondary position. 

Fortunately, I could make that happen so that everyone had a sense of personal investment in what they did. As a result, it was staff members who became responsible for some of the best work that Joe produced.

Norm: The book highlights a range of iconic productions, from Shakespeare in Central Park to groundbreaking plays like "for colored girls who have considered suicide/when the rainbow is enuf."

Could you discuss selecting and producing such a diverse array of works?

Gail:  To be honest, there wasn't always the orderly process you refer to in producing the diverse array of works at The Public Theater. 

Despite our profound organizational commitment to find and  enable the production of new works, the actual process was often serendipitous.

Meaning that it might arise from a chance meeting on a sidewalk… or an unexpected phone call from the friend of someone…or a squib in a newspaper alluding to an intriguing preview in a remote province in the northwest.

It could be Joe, me, or anyone else meeting an actor, playwright, or director on a bus, train, plane or in the subway and hearing that they had something in mind. 

With colored girls who have considered suicide/when the rainbow is enuf  by the great Ntozake Shange, her script was given to us by Oz Scott, a director who had started out as a stage manager at the Public.

He brought our attention to it after its recent performances off-off-Broadway and at a bar in Greenwich Village.

Norm: Many legendary actors like James Earl Jones, Meryl Streep, and Kevin Kline owe their careers to The Public Theater. Can you share some memorable anecdotes about working with these actors and how their involvement impacted the theater's legacy?

Gail: The "legendary actors" you mention had different connections to The Public Theater but they all started when they were young around the beginnning of their careers. 

James Earl Jones appeared in Joe's early productions of Shakespeare, thinking at that time, "What role can a Black person play in Shakespeare? 

I hadn’t discussed with anybody the complications of what they were calling integrated casting in those days.” 

With Joe he appeared in nine Shakespeare productions including the title roles in King Lear, Othello, and Macbeth. Before her film career took off, Meryl Streep, who said that Joe was "the only boss I ever loved," was memorable in her Shakespearean roles, including Kate in The Taming of the Shrew. Kevin Kline got his start in a minor role in Shakespeare but subsequently played all the major roles in Joe's Shakespeare productions. 

When they'd get together for a serious discussion about Hamlet, Kevin remembered how they'd always kid around first trying to crack each other up with puns and corny jokes.

Norm: The narrative covers both moments of passionate artistry and setbacks. Can you share an example of a particularly challenging moment in your journey with The Public Theater and how it was ultimately overcome?

Gail:  As the title of my book (Public/Private) indicates, my personal relationship with Joe ran parallel to the history of the first years of the Public Theater. 

Although this may not be what you had in mind with your question, that fact represents a challenging though wonderful episode in my story whose nuances don't lend themselves to a short answer, but which led to the happy date of our marriage in 1976.

Norm: The impact of AIDS on the theater community is an important aspect of your memoir. How did this crisis affect The Public Theater's productions, relationships, and overall mission during that era?

Gail: Like all the performing arts, we lost an appalling number of friends and treasured colleagues to AIDS beginning in the mid-1980s—directors, actors, playwrights, designers, composers, the Public's Artistic Director, a press representative, my staff assistant. 

 I developed a close relationship with Larry Kramer around his play The Normal Heart about the AIDS crisis which at that time was completely ignored by federal, state and city officialdom. It became the longest-running play in the Public Theater's history, giving rise to 600 productions around the world and galvanizing action that began to change the heartless neglect that had prevailed..

Norm: "Public/Private" discusses the societal divisions surrounding issues of equality, identity, and freedom of expression. How did The Public Theater become a beacon for social change, and what lessons can be drawn from its history for today's world?

Gail: The Public Theater became a beacon because of the people who were inspired by its democratic founding story that not only changed American theater in the way that it staged Shakespeare, but also brought into major focus the voices of new American playwrights who had been previously minimized or ignored often due to their ethnicity and gender. 

Its influence was neither magical nor mystical. It was entirely due to the specific actions that each individual took to speak and create.

Norm: Where can our readers find out more about you and Public/Private: My Life with Joe Papp at The Public Theater?

Gail: They can find out more on MY WEBSITE, which has lots of interesting pictures, announcement of events, as well as chapter excerpts and information about the book.

Norm: As we wrap up this interview, the book delves into the life of Joe Papp and his vision for a democratic theater. As readers explore your memoir, what do you hope they will take away from your experiences and the legacy of The Public Theater?

Gail: In our currently destabilized world of a devastating pandemic and the toxic undermining of our country’s fragile democratic experiment, I hope readers will take heart from Joe’s fighting words and large perspective—and feel empowered by the humor and humanity of pragmatic radical who was touched with public genius.

Norm: Thanks once again and good luck with all of your endeavors