Today, Norm Goldman, Editor& Publisher of Bookpleasures.com is honored to have as our guest, Joshua Kurlantzick author of Charm Offensive: How China’s Soft Power is Transforming the World. Josh is a Visiting Scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Special Correspondent at the New Republic, and Senior Correspondent at the American Prospect. He has also written many articles for such publications as Foreign Affairs, The New York Times Magazine, The Washington Post, Foreign Policy, Harper’s, The Atlantic Monthly, Rolling Stone, Commentary and several others.

Good day Josh and thanks for participating in our interview.

Norm:

Could you tell our readers what exactly you do as a Visiting Scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace?

Josh:

I have a fair amount of leeway at Carnegie, but basically I do research on China’s foreign policies, and particularly China’s foreign policies toward developing nations in Asia, Africa, and Latin America. I spend time on the road in these countries examining China’s foreign policies, and then I come back to the US and write reports, policy papers, articles, and books.

Norm:

You indicate in the Preface to Charm Offensive: How China’s Soft Power is Transforming the World that the book represents an attempt to close the gap of the lack of knowledge about China’s soft power and its increasingly sophisticated diplomacy, which has and will transform international relations. Please tell our readers what made you become interested in the subject matter and why did you feel compelled to write the book?

Josh:

I think I first became interested in the subject matter when I was a correspondent based in Southeast Asia in the late 1990s and early 2000s. It was at this time that China was really beginning to become more diplomatically active in Asia, and I started to notice this at the time. Particularly, I noticed it in Cambodia and Thailand, where China had changed its relationship with these countries from one of mistrust and outright anger into one of much smoother relations. But I couldn’t find many people who could explain to me how China was achieving these changes, so I wanted to find out more for myself.

Norm:

Why do you think this is an important book at this time?  How has the feedback been so far?
 
Josh:

So far, the feedback has been pretty good. It’s been well reviewed in several places, and I’ve been speaking about the book in the US. I just came back from a conference in Shanghai where I spoke about many topics in the book, and got excellent feedback from a number of Chinese scholars. I do think it’s an important book at this time, because Western nations are just beginning to wake up to the fact that China has suddenly become a major power, and yet the amount of knowledge on Chinese policy-making is limited.

Norm:

Could you briefly tell us what you mean by soft power and how does the soft power of China differ from that of the USA?

Josh:

Soft power, as originally coined by Joseph Nye, a scholar at Harvard, essentially meant the appeal of a nation to other countries. As Nye explained, “soft power rests on the ability to shape the preferences of others. . . . It is leading by example and attracting others to do what you want.” “If I can get you to do what I want, then I do not have to use carrots or sticks to make you do it,” As I discuss, this attractiveness can be conveyed through various means, including a country’s popular and elite culture, its public diplomacy (government-funded programs intended to influence public opinion abroad), its businesses’ actions abroad, international perception of its government’s policies, and the gravitational pull of a nation’s economic strength, among other factors. In recent years, soft power has become even more important.

In some ways, China’s soft power doesn’t differ from the US. China tries to influence foreign nations’ public opinion, and so does the US. China’s growing economy exerts soft power, just as the US economy does. China’s sponsoring of Chinese language studies is similar to the US sponsoring study in America programs. But some elements of China’s soft power are different. For one, right now it is still unclear what China stands for, in the long run. As Nye explained, in order for soft power to work over the long run, people must know what your country stands for, what it’s core values are – and hopefully those values will be attractive to other people in foreign countries. Right now, I think the Chinese leadership is still trying to figure out what exactly China stands for.

Norm:

What kind of research did you do to write this book? What are your hopes for this book?
 

Josh:

 I spent about three years researching and writing the book. The research consisted in part of interviewing Chinese policy-makers in China about the changing nature of Chinese foreign policy, and then much more time spent interviewing Chinese diplomats in Asia and other regions about China’s soft power, as well as local opinion leaders in these regions about responses to China’s soft power. After the research I came back to the US, holed myself up, and wrote a draft, which I then edited along with Keith Condon, my great editor at Yale University Press. The book tries to be a blend of narrative, journalistic-type writing that I hope will appeal to a broad audience and more academic, specific analysis that may appeal more to China specialists. So far, the book is being bought by both general readers interested in China and by universities and university classes. I hope that will be the trend in the future – I think it’s important that as broad an audience as possible, both in the West and in China, thinks about what kind of global power China will become.

Norm:

In your book you state that a few years ago when you started to question Washington’s policy makers about China’s new global influence- its soft power, you received blank stares. Do you feel that there has been a change over the past few years and if so, how?

Josh:

I think that there has been a change over the past two years or so. In particular because China has so rapidly started to play a role in regions it was long absent from, like Africa and Latin America, Western policy-makers have really started to take notice of China’s emerging diplomacy. You see the subject of China’s policies in Africa, for example, suddenly becoming a hot topic at the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, the State Department, and other places.  There have been numerous conferences in Washington over the past year on China’s interests in Africa. However, what’s needed now is more substantial research to get a better sense of the scope of China’s new diplomacy. For example, no one still has a very good idea of how much money China gives out in aid, or exactly how China’s aid process works; there are only estimates, like I’ve come up with.

Norm:

There is mention in your book that in certain instances China has not lived up to all of its promises when it spreads around its soft power. How widespread is the non-fulfillment of his promises and what do you believe will be the repercussions?

Josh:

I’m not sure yet how widespread this nonfulfillment is. Because China is only emerging as a diplomatic power, it’s yet unclear which promises they can live up to and which they can’t. But clearly, one of the major long-term issues China faces is that it is making the promises of a major power, and it is increasingly perceived as a major power, and it has the cash reserves to spread around, but it doesn’t have the experience or skills to fulfill some of its aid promises. It doesn’t even yet have an organization dedicated to giving out aid, like the United States Agency for International Development or Britain’s DFID. If China doesn’t quickly establish such an agency, and fails to meet its promises, I think it is in for substantial problems.

Norm:

There has been much discussion about the Chinese renminbi (RMB) over the past few years and a great deal of pressure on the part of developed nations for revaluation. What you like to comment and do you believe that China should abandon its peg to the dollar?

Josh:

I’m not really an expert on the RMB peg. I know that experts differ on whether the removing of the peg to the dollar actually would wind up benefiting the US economy, as some in Congress claim. However, I do think that in general, we are coming closer to bigger problems between China and the US Congress, because Congress is very unsatisfied with the actions China has taken to address the currency issue, yet Chinese officials feel that have taken enough action.

Norm:

China has witnessed an overheated economy and the government has adopted a series of macro-regulation measures and policies to try to cool down their economy. What do you believe is the cause of the overheating and do you believe that the methods used to curb it are appropriate and effective?

Josh:

Again, I’m not an expert on China’s economy. China’s growth is very, very strong, and its money supply is rising too quickly. Inflation is very high and the real estate sector is probably too hot. The Chinese government is trying everything but has had little success, so I’m not sure what they should do.

Norm:

Do you believe that foreign corporations avoid the subject of human rights as applicable to China because they fear that the cost of labor might go up?

Josh:

I don’t think all foreign corporations avoid the subject of human rights in China, and there are many examples of current and former businesspeople pushing for human rights in China. John Kamm, former president of the American Chamber of Commerce in Hong Kong, and now a major human rights advocate, is only one such example. Many foreign companies also would argue that they are held, and hold themselves, to higher human rights standards than their Chinese competitors. (This was an argument made by Google and other tech companies when they argued that they should not face punishment for applying some restrictions to their search engines in China.)

However, clearly some foreign companies don’t want to talk about human rights abuses in China. I think they don’t want to do so not so much because they fear the cost of labor going up but because they fear if they speak out too openly they will be punished in some way by the Chinese government. And since China, despite its modern appearance, still remains a place where the government’s imprimatur is crucial to getting business done, angering the government could torpedo any foreign investment.

Norm:

Can you explain some of your research techniques, and how you found sources for your book?  What challenges or obstacles did you encounter while writing your book? How did you overcome these challenges?

Josh:

Basically, my research style is a very journalistic one. I try to compile secondary sources, both Chinese, Western, and other, and then I try to spend as much time as possible actually on the ground in countries. I don’t think there’s any substitute for real shoe-leather reporting, and since China is trying to improve its public image – its image to broad publics in many countries – I don’t think you can get a sense of how well China is doing without asking questions to as many people as possible in whatever country you are studying. So in most of these countries I would develop a list of people I’d want to interview, working with a local journalist, and then simply try to meet as many people as possible, and pose similar questions too all of them.

The obstacles, of course, tend to come from the fact that China’s diplomacy is not as transparent yet as that of the US, or Canada, or European nations. But I did find that, outside of China, Chinese diplomats were relatively willing to speak with me – partly, I think, because they are proud of how far China has come in a short time.

Norm:

Do you feel that writers, regardless of genre owe something to readers, if not, why not, if so, why and what would that be?

Josh:

Of course, writers owe something to their readers. They owe them as much research and readable writing as possible. Then, when the book is out I think authors owe their readers the willingness to be accessible to readers and really listen to readers’ responses to the book. It’s the least we can do, given that people are investing time (and money!) in reading our work.

Norm:

I noticed that you wear and have worn many hats. Which one(s) do you prefer and why?

Josh:

I’m pretty happy at Carnegie; it’s a welcoming environment and there are great people there to support your research. It allows me to write both journalistic and more scholarly pieces.

Norm:

What is the biggest reward of life as a writer?

Josh:

Working at your own pace, and determining your own life, without being subject to anyone else’s demands.

Norm:

Is there anything else you wish to add and what is next for Josh Kurlantzick?

Josh:

I’m going to work on another long-term project about China’s foreign policy, looking in more depth in Africa, Latin America, and Central Asia. I’m also working on a book about a man named Jim Thompson, who built a major silk business in Thailand and then mysteriously disappeared in 1967.

Thanks once again and good luck with all of your future endeavors. 

Josh:

Thank you so much,

To read Norm's Review of Charm Offensive: How China’s Soft Power is Transforming the World CLICK HERE

To find out more about Josh CLICK HERE