Author: Sandy Nathan

ISBN: 0-9762809-8-1

Publisher: Vilasa Press

Today, Susan Harkins one of Bookpleasures' reviewers interviews Sandy Nathan author of Stepping of the Edge: Learning and Living Spiritual Practice

Susan: Sandy, thank you for agreeing to discuss your new book Stepping Off the Edge with me. After reading your book, I know how busy you are! While reading the book, I often felt as though you were speaking to me personally. Your book is different from the run of the mill spiritual help book because it addresses purpose rather than “psychic insight.” Do you consider yourself psychic in the same sense that so many other “spiritual gurus” do?

Sandy: Before we get started––thank you, Susan, for such a clear and penetrating review of my book. Your questions here are equally incisive, honing in on issues that I’ve been struggling with.

To respond to your first comment, I probably was speaking to you directly in some sense. People who are interested in the same things or who are facing similar issues or trials resonate––we’re connected at the soul level. I’m glad my words touched you.

Regarding purpose and psychic insight, we are a purposive species; our nervous systems are hard-wired to find meaning and purpose in our lives. I’ve felt this all my life and am thrilled to see that the scientific community is finding neuro-biological reasons for it. I loved Drs. Andrew Newberg and Eugene D’Aquili’s Why God Won’t Go Away and I’m loving Newberg’s Why We Believe What We Believe.

When I was teaching MBA students at Stanford’s Graduate School of Business how to “active listen”––a non-directive listening technique––the biggest problem some had was letting go of the idea that they had to manage a conversation or interview to get results. When I got them to simply listen to the other person’s point of view, they found they didn’t have to run things for progress to be made. The person they were talking to had his or her own purpose. They simply had to listen for it.

“Psychic insight.” A Jesuit priest named Bernard Lonergan wrote a book called Insight some years ago. The philosophy professor who told me about the book was very excited, saying, “Lonergan has solved the Kantian dilemma (how to experience the thing-in-itself as opposed to perceived reality). The solution is insight.”

Insight pierces the veil between the world we perceive and the world of the noumenon, absolute reality outside human sense data. It’s insight that cuts through ordinary reality and makes “the other side” manifest in our lives. Those flashes of knowledge are gifts.

I think we’re all psychic, just as we are purposive and insightful. We all have psychic abilities––we just cover them up with rotten thinking and things that destroy spirit. Drugs, alcohol, the various behavioral addictions, and all of the ploys we use to keep from knowing who we really are. Get rid of those and anyone will channel just fine.

Do I consider myself psychic like the other “spiritual gurus?” Hmm. I’m not familiar with most writers in the spiritual genre. I like reading scriptures (a variety of them) and the writings of a few masters and saints. I’ve never heard these truly holy people refer to themselves as psychic or enlightened. They are, of course, but that’s not how they represent themselves.

I’ve read a few books in the spiritual genre recently and thought most of what I’ve read was awful. That may come from having taken as much economics and statistics as I have. I want a tightly reasoned argument supported by legitimate research. My skepticism is fueled by the fact that I’ve had zillions of spiritual experiences. Not one writes up like it came from a New Age manual. I’ve never had a vision involving Atlantis, for instance.

I suppose that will brand me as a hopeless dolt to some.

If anything separates me from other writers, it’s that I’m not interested in fixing or redoing other people with my book or system. I’m not trying to peddle anything; I’m just sharing my story.

In my experience, real change comes from the core and works outward. It takes time, and lots of work, over a lifetime. The actual healing can happen fast once the groundwork has been done, but it’s a lifetime commitment, whether one is psychic or not. Being a midwife of change requires respect for the individual psyche and a fully functioning brain and soul.

False identification is a big barrier to spiritual development that I see in some writers. I talk about it in Stepping Off the Edge: It’s when people think: “I am my intellect.” “I am my physique.” “I am what I own.” “I am my psychic abilities.” It’s as easy to falsely identify with one’s Spiritual Seeker or Psychic Self subpersonality as any other. But that isn’t the goal.

My goal is So’ham: I am That, the formless one outside of the perceived world. Union with God is my goal. I don’t want to sell my birthright for a full seminar or book sales. I want the end state. I see it, but I don’t claim to live there permanently––yet.

One of my friends asked me, “What are you? A teacher? A healer? A guru?”

I am a woman who listens. I care very deeply about how the world turns out. I’d like to consider myself my readers’ friend and colleague, a traveler on the same path. I’d like to be the neighbor you wish you had.

Susan: Is there a single moment or event that turned you to the spiritual path or was the process more gradual for you?

Sandy: It wasn’t so gradual as life consuming and volcanic. I’ve always had a sense of going somewhere. Even when I had no clue as to where it was, I knew I was going there. I feel like a fish swimming upstream to spawn. (So far I haven’t found myself high and dry on a beach with bears feeding on me!)

I’ve always felt the need to reach the top or the highest state. I never interpreted that as making the most money or owning the most toys. I could feel a thread of meaning underlying what I did. As an example, when I finally got my own horse, I rode in a drill team and parade unit. That was really fun for a couple of years. But I became a better rider, a better horsewoman. I wanted more from riding. I rode a reined stock horse somewhere. That was it.

The bliss of riding a reined stock horse is indescribable. My last reiner was so sensitive that I felt that I controlled her with my thoughts. I just had to think a command and she’d do it. Several other horses and I have shared that level of rapport.

Showing horses became my focus in those days, but that wasn’t the only focus. Learning competitive discipline in the show ring was important, but the experiences I had riding my horse through the redwood forests of California’s coastal range were as important. My first unitive experiences––where I felt my horse and I dissolving into the world around us––came on those rides.

I went to school, attending Santa Clara University, then San Jose State University, and later Stanford. I love academic pursuits. And they saved me. My father was killed in the middle of finals my freshman year. Philosophy was a required minor at Santa Clara University in those days. My coursework in philosophy helped me survive the loss of my father and all that followed.

There’s a thread that underlies our lives. It’s useful to take a look at it. What is most important to each of us? How does it change over time? Do we feel the thread? Do we follow it?

I started out thinking that being a great horsewoman would embody the highest level of human development. As I went through the educational system, I believed that the most highly educated people were God on earth. When the human potential movement raged in the 1970s, I thought the most glowing seminar leader had reached nirvana.

At different times, I wanted to become each of these wunderkinder. But when I got a close look at the people I idolized, I was able to see their flaws. What I wanted changed. Only my meditation masters have stood like beacons for me, for more than thirty years now.

This process is called viveka, or discrimination. It’s the process of discerning the difference between what’s truly good (and good for you) and what isn’t.

For years, I wanted to be enlightened. I saw my meditation teachers and thought, That’s me. That’s what I want. After reading a few stories of enlightenment experiences, which tend to read like science fiction, I thought again, Maybe I’ll take what I’m getting. Which is pretty good.

Now my goals are internal. I want to feel my heart moving in my chest. I can see it with lights of different colors turning in a spiral as I type; I can feel it pulsate. I want to be in the state where that inner reality is as compelling as the sensations of my feet walking on the path. I want that connection all the time. I want to do what I am bid to do by that which informs us all.

Susan: You speak about “the voice” that comes from your higher self and the voices that come from your sub personalities. How do you tell the difference?

Sandy: The Voice is unequivocal. No hedging, no “what if.” It’s always right: The only time I get in trouble now is if I don’t do what the Voice says. It may not be fun following its orders for the short term, but it always turns out right. The Voice speaks with very few or no words––sometimes just blasts of meaning. It has a quality of authority and truth and none of the other jabbering in my head does. It also stops all other voices cold. It’s unmistakable.

Susan: What kind of feedback are you getting from readers? Do you receive requests for help? How do you handle them?

Sandy:  The feedback I’ve received has been very positive. People have been getting exactly what I hoped they’d get from Stepping. That’s gratifying.

And, of course, Stepping Off the Edge is a finalist for the 2007 Benjamin Franklin Award in the New Age category. That is pretty nice feedback, given the thousands of books entered. I won’t know if I’ve won until May 31^st. I’ve also entered Stepping in two other contests that haven’t announced their finalists yet. We’ll see.

In terms of answering requests for help, I’m limited by my physical constraints––my back, knee, etc. (as noted in Stepping). I can’t do the extensive traveling that I’d like to do to meet everyone. But there are ways . . . and more ways are appearing all the time.

We’re working on my web site to make it more responsive to readers. We’re planning audio seminars and videos and other on-line ways of getting together. Those will be available on the sandynathan.com as soon as we can get them going. We may have seminars or retreats here at the ranch one day. That’s up in the air.

I do pray for people. If I receive a prayer request, I add it to my prayer chest. I pray all the time: as I walk, when I’m sitting, meditating, riding my exercise bike. You don’t have to say what the issue is, just; “I’d like your prayers for a situation in my life.” We’ll get a formal prayer request button set up on the web site. Meanwhile, people can email me at sandy@sandynathan.com

Susan: Several chapters of your book dealt with addiction. Do you see this as a big problem in today’s society? Or, did you write about it simply as an impediment to spiritual development?

Sandy: If you sum up all the addictions––alcohol and substance abuse, behavioral addictions such as gambling, over-spending, compulsive shopping, on-line addiction, sex and relationship addictions, eating disorders, on and on––the sum equals modern mass culture. I’d bet that almost everyone has at least one addiction. I think the problem is huge and growing and unnoticed by most.

The on-line addictions are newish. As psychologists and researchers do more work, and as more people become addicted, I think we’re going to see stunning losses of people’s lives and resources. I’m not talking about people dying from on-line addictions, but rather losing so many precious hours that might be spent in “real time.” I’ve seen people so enslaved that they can’t leave their computers, cell phones, blue tooths (teeth?), palm whatsas and other paraphernalia. The real world fades before the cyber impressions of the electronic culture. The concept of a quiet, peaceful mind will disappear, except for spiritual seekers.

The drug and alcohol problem is over the top. We live in the middle of Santa Barbara’s wine country. Almost no one questions our valley’s wine-based culture. Drinking is a legitimate activity, as documented by the film, Sideways. And no one cares. Or if they care, it’s to encourage it. No one mentions that wine is as addictive as any type of alcoholic beverage.

My husband and I went to a packed musical performance the other night. The musicians sang and played about: “I’d rather be bad, because when I’m good, my heart gets broken. So I’ll be bad.” That meant drinking, driving wildly, and having disrupted romances that end in tragedy. They were singing popular culture, and it was about addiction. The audience loved it.

Susan: The Gathering chapters confused me. I saw how the process of going and attending helped you, but why did you choose a Native American retreat? Most of the workshops you attended seemed strictly cultural and not spiritual, so I’m curious how the interaction was such a spiritual catalyst for you?

Sandy: Basically, I went that first time for Bill Miller. You need to experience him and his music to understand how powerful a draw he is. I mention a healer friend, Sudama Mark Kennedy, in my book. Sudama saw Bill perform and said, “He must have all the Power of all the Nations behind him.”

That captures the Bill Miller: He walks on stage and takes it over like he was a forty-piece orchestra. His music is extraordinary. He takes me to places that I have reached only in a meditation retreat.

He’s really a case of “falling in love with what you’re becoming” for me. We have totally dissimilar and yet very similar backgrounds. Bill was born and raised on a reservation. He had lots of brothers and sisters––9 or 12, a bunch. He had an abusive, alcoholic father and faced poverty and discrimination. He’s overcome all of that and radiates spirit and health. I’m working my way through my own past. I have a very strong empathy for the First Nations Peoples because they have suffered.

So I was drawn to Bill.

The other part was: I really hadn’t traveled alone before. It was an achievement, though I may have written about it humorously. I was working hard the whole time. And spirit accompanied me and bore fruit. I still have the outline of that book that I sketched out on the porch that afternoon.

I go back to the Gathering every year; it continues to be a large spiritual event in my life. The retreat grounds are near the Cherokee reservation. The whole area is old Cherokee land, where the People lived before they were forced to march to Oklahoma in the middle of winter, creating the Trail of Tears. The place is old, holy ground. (http://www.thegathering.us)

So while the Gathering isn’t an intense spiritual event like a meditation retreat, it is intense and very rich in its own way. Its people feel like family, and they have since I met them in 2003.

Susan: What are you working on right now? Do you plan to write another book on spiritual life?

Sandy: This is very exciting. I have been working so hard––my first novel is coming out this summer. The galleys are at the printer now. It promises to be a beautiful book and as intriguing as Stepping Off the Edge, though in different ways. I’ve also got Numenon entered in a nationwide contest. I’ll know how these contests turned out on May 1. (I accept prayers and good wishes!)

Here is the book’s web site: http://www.numenon.com. The title, Numenon, is a lesser-known spelling of the noumenon I discussed above. It’s a concept from philosophy, the thing-in-itself, reality beyond sense perception. The books in this series are what I call ontological or metaphysical thrillers. They’re about being in the world––the human condition.

Numenon is a highbrow thriller; and it’s a thriller-thriller. I’ve not seen another book like it.

In Stepping Off the Edge, I explained that I went to a meditation retreat in 1995. This was after two incredibly difficult and painful years from ’93 to ’95. The retreat worked a miracle for me. When I left, I felt totally healed and ready to go. I had a more incredible spiritual event when I got home: In an instant, an entire book was injected in my brain. It felt like a bolt of lighting, complete with brilliant blue sparks of energy inside my skull.

It turned out it wasn’t a book; it was two series of books. I sat down and wrote for nine years, almost without stopping. I have drafts of nine books written. They form two interrelated series.

Numenon is the first book to see the light of day; it’s the first book of The Bloodsong Series.  Bloodsong accurately describes the series: It’s the fruit of my blood singing through my body and brain.

We’re working on a cool web site for the series now—I want something with lots of pages for people to explore. A real on-line destination. At present, we’ve got a marker page up: http://www.bloodsongseries.com/

In addition to Numenon and its sequels, I’ve got all the horse related material that I discussed in Stepping waiting in the wings. I want to do a memoir focusing on my life with horses. Horses have saved me. I have had amazing, over the top Samadhi (enlightenment) experiences showing them in the National Championships. (Showing horses is a complete spiritual training. All you have to do is avoid getting trapped into believing that ribbons and trophies are what you win.)

Horses are a true yoga. I want to write about that. I’ve got a couple of web sites about life with horses. First, our ranch web site, http://www.ranchovilasa.com, and then http://www.equinesandheartstrings.com. You can also get to these through http://www.sandynathan.com. Plus, I’ve got much more about horses written that no one’s seen.

And dogs. I’ve always had dogs, but they became my dear friends after our kids left home. Trying to deal with empty nest syndrome, I rescued two little dogs from the pound. I discovered that some rescue dogs have issues––insanity, for one. Coping with the problems they brought home, I learned a way of training that relies solely on positive feedback. That changed me. Some of the dog stories are here: http://www.sandynathandogs.com

I keep writing. As things touch me, I write something. Maybe a letter to the editor, a chapter, or whatever. I’ve prayed to God to keep my body and brain going long enough to share these gifts completely. That’s how my books feel: A treasure trove coming through me. All I did was go do spiritual practice for thirty years and sit at a computer for a few more . . .

All of my work is spiritual. All of it relates to the process of redemption, of completion, of becoming the people we were meant to be. And I don’t write for just spiritual people. No, this is for everyone. For instance, I’d give Numenon an R rating, vs. Stepping’s G. Numenon is about a cultural collision, but it’s mostly about the process of every individual in it confronting him or herself and making choices. It’s intensively spiritual and sometimes dark.

Stepping Off the Edge is the nonfiction version; The Bloodsong Series and Numenon is how I do it with fiction. 

Susan: Has your life changed much since you published this book? If yes, how?

Sandy:  It hasn’t changed a great deal, aside from being asked to be on radio and TV . . . and interviewed. And being on a bestseller list locally. Actually, the book is barely out––you were one of the first people to read it. I checked my Amazon sale page the other day, and it showed Stepping Off the Edge being released in mid-May 2007. So it’s not really released yet, though we do have books and are selling them.

I have seen changes; people walking up to me at various functions and saying they have my book. People calling or writing to say they’ve got it and what it meant to them. My reading group read Stepping and had a magnificent meeting about it.

I was worried about what would happen when Stepping was released. I’m a private person, and I live a life that is almost monastic. In many ways, my life is so good right now that I worried about spoiling it if I became better known. I worried that I would change and become more  . . . greedy? Materialistic? I feared that I’d lose myself.

Every marketing newsletter and mailing list for writers that exists seems to have found its way to me. Receiving all those pitches scared me to death: Would I become like those people? Did I have to sound like a carnival huckster to succeed?

But what I’m finding is that my fears aren’t materializing. Moving through things I saw as barriers––fear of public speaking, for instance––are growing fields for spiritual development. I’m moving in directions I wanted to go more powerfully. I’m held to a stricter standard. I can’t talk to you about spiritual practice unless I’m maintaining my own discipline.

I’m finding that my fears are boogiemen created by my mind. Surprise.

Susan: I’d like to thank you for writing such a helpful, sensitive, and powerful book. I know that it touched my life in a profound way and I highly recommend it to anyone who’s searching—and that’s just about all of us.

Susan Sales Harkins is a  software consultant and the author of several articles and books on database technologies. She and her husband, William, collaborate on children's non-fiction. Click Here to read more of Susan’s Reviews 

 To read Susan's Review of Stepping of the Edge CLICK HERE